tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post449757474037649159..comments2022-03-30T01:21:56.188-04:00Comments on The Journals of Ian Thal: Commentary: Motti Lerner's "At Night's End"Ian Thalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-19036198576872982512012-02-25T12:57:23.825-05:002012-02-25T12:57:23.825-05:00Other than the observation that Obama and Netanyah...Other than the observation that Obama and Netanyahu are not BFFs, I don't think you have substantiated that Israel "attempting to influence the US election." I certainly have not seen any such evidence. There are plenty of instances where both administrations continue to work together on matters of mutual interest and make public statements praising each other's leadership. WhatIan Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-48271657785952936902012-02-25T00:09:42.430-05:002012-02-25T00:09:42.430-05:00You know, Ian, you dodge and weave pretty well, bu...You know, Ian, you dodge and weave pretty well, but you're still stuck with the fact that we tolerate Israel's occupation of a hostile territory apparently in perpetuity because - well, why? Because it's "cost effective"? HOW is it "cost-effective"? What is the benefit to the United States of Israel's occupation of Palestine? I'm really curious what Thomas Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492010718011287860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-47141525926943679152012-02-24T16:16:42.658-05:002012-02-24T16:16:42.658-05:00we're not shipping France and Germany millions...<b>we're not shipping France and Germany millions of dollars every day in military aid</b><br /><br />That's a fairly illusory argument actually. Because when we consider how much it costs the United States to maintain bases, troops, ships, planes, missiles, tanks et cetera, both in the democratic states of Europe as well as in the authoritarian states of the Arab world, the cash voucher Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-31143326496691917532012-02-24T14:57:44.766-05:002012-02-24T14:57:44.766-05:00Well, I guess I'll throw out this answer - I d...Well, I guess I'll throw out this answer - I don't think I have to reconcile various European limitations on citizenship, etc., because I disagree with them, too. I'm not making the case that such policies are okay for them, but not for you. And I would remind you that we're not shipping France and Germany millions of dollars every day in military aid, which in turn helps them Thomas Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492010718011287860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-22111978727766572982012-02-22T16:11:00.967-05:002012-02-22T16:11:00.967-05:00Well, I suppose I should throw the question to you...Well, I suppose I should throw the question to you: how do you reconcile any of the ethnic democracies of Europe with Enlightenment ideals of democracy, despite government policies to promote their indigenous cultures, languages, and rituals? Or are Europeans defined ethnically-neutral simply because they happen to be gentiles? <br /><br />This is a tension we deal with in any democracy. The Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-53732809977375691742012-02-22T16:08:10.720-05:002012-02-22T16:08:10.720-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-39895568636768909492012-02-22T13:49:07.430-05:002012-02-22T13:49:07.430-05:00Okay, I just want to note that you haven't act...Okay, I just want to note that you haven't actually answered the question "How is a 'Jewish' state to be squared with Enlightenment ideals of democracy?" Instead, you have simply said, "Look, Israel is better than Saudi Arabia and Syria!!!" Which it certainly is. But then I don't much like Saudi Arabia or Syria either. And it's hard to keep playing the Thomas Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492010718011287860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-1176347878326793052012-02-20T11:16:37.671-05:002012-02-20T11:16:37.671-05:00Israeli Stage promotes Israeli culture (which is s...Israeli Stage promotes Israeli culture (which is separate from government) and that is sufficient reason for there to be a cultural attache at the reading. As I pointed out, Lerner's own politics are hardly in line with that of the Likud-led government, nor is <i>At Night's End</i> a particularly flattering portrait of Israeli society (it just has the nuance and grounding in reality that Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-43463708142411764802012-02-20T09:45:05.580-05:002012-02-20T09:45:05.580-05:00Again, please. There's no "blood libel&q...Again, please. There's no "blood libel" in "Seven Jewish Children." And what bothers you about it, I think, is that it clearly, if quickly, limns a central paradox about Israel. Beyond the (totally justified!) sympathy with the Jewish people that came after the horror of the Holocaust, there are a slew of tricky moral questions surrounding Israel's founding and, yesThomas Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492010718011287860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-27365976445520070262012-02-20T08:26:17.060-05:002012-02-20T08:26:17.060-05:00It's only slander if it isn't true. I take...It's only slander if it isn't true. I take antisemitism seriously and thus, do not use the word lightly. Rather than being biased against "current Israeli policy" (which it isn't, since it was written while there was a Kadima-Labor led coalition in power, while the current government is led by Likud) <i>Seven Jewish Children</i> is biased against Israel's founding, its Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-70765612471882407362012-02-19T23:18:20.765-05:002012-02-19T23:18:20.765-05:00Oh, Ian, you're just talking silly. No way is...Oh, Ian, you're just talking silly. No way is Caryl Churchill an anti-Semite in the way that T. S. Eliot was, in fact, I don't think "Seven Jewish Children" is anti-Semitic at all (if I believed it were, I wouldn't have posted it). You're right that it is a polemic, and that it is biased against current Israeli policy. But I disagree with much of what Israel does, so Thomas Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492010718011287860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-88957017153204129512012-02-19T17:16:43.245-05:002012-02-19T17:16:43.245-05:00Tom, I'm going to say this as a friend: I thin...Tom, I'm going to say this as a friend: I think that on this matter you are wrong on nearly all fronts.<br /><br />I have been asked my opinion on <i>Seven Jewish Children</i> several times since it was first published, and thus I have read it several times. Based on what Churchill I have encountered, I have come to the conclusion that the quality of her output varies widely, and that it'Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7855164859139529987.post-14523626548264168312012-02-19T12:51:44.586-05:002012-02-19T12:51:44.586-05:00As you know, Ian, I'm a fan of Caryl Churchill...As you know, Ian, I'm a fan of Caryl Churchill, and I'm also a fan of "Seven Jewish Children" (in fact I posted it on my blog). That play is quite short, and so, it's true, it's blunt, and I understand how it could offend; still, it puts a finger on an ethical dilemma that I think few Israeli partisans like to face: just how far does the terrible trauma of the HolocaustThomas Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492010718011287860noreply@blogger.com